gloranthafandomcom-20200215-history
Talk:Zorak Zoran
Have we a source for the Aldryami connection? It's certainly not from Cults of Prax or Troll Gods.NickPheas 21:45, September 18, 2010 (UTC) A myth of the month called Aldrya's Own Story available here http://www.glorantha.com/new/myth/AldryaMyth.html Metcalph 23:19, September 18, 2010 (UTC) ::OK, I get from that we get Zazakzor, who certainly feels very much as to Zorak Zoran, as Rebelius Terminus does to Orlanth - an enemy God - though the Aldryami holistic view of the world wouldn't phrase things in that way. Nothing at all mentioning the Shadzoring. Nothing there suggesting any kind of Goddess Switch effect going on.NickPheas 08:13, September 19, 2010 (UTC) That particular text was written very early in the wiki when I was churning out mere stubs to build up a framework. I would rewrite it differently now. The reference to the Shadzoring War is in History of the Heortling Peoples which is the last time that Zolan Zubar appears worshipped by the Uz whereas by the time Arkat appears, they are worshipping Zorak Zoran. I would also take issue with the replacement being described as a Goddess Switch. The Goddess Switch was a magical change imposed on two different communities. This is much closer to the Orlanthi of Tarsh and southern Peloria replacing the worship of Dar the chieftain with Orlanth Rex or the Malkioni worldwide adopting the Abiding Book. The change is much more violent as the Uz were under the threat of extermination. Metcalph 08:59, September 19, 2010 (UTC) ::As written you have it saying that Zorak Zoran, one of the definitive (in player character eyes at least, less in Uz society) Troll Gods is not in fact a native Troll God, but an enemy Aldryami diety somehow shoehorned into Uz religion by the Dawn Council. If that were true that would be a huge deal. Far bigger than Orlanthi changing their worship practices or the Malkioni reformation. Which obviously was not your intent, but that's how it reads. Not meaning this to get personal you understand, just reading things with less familiar eyes.NickPheas 09:44, September 19, 2010 (UTC) Zolan Zubar and Zorak Zoran About this topic, after I reread the texts, in my humble opinion, there are ambiguous elements. Two texts, History of the Heortling Peoples and the web excerpts of Book of Belintar are mentioned by Peter. As far as I read in my limited English ability, I think it isn't enough proof about the change of worship among Uz. History of the Heortling Peoples Peter wrote: >Zolan Zubar appears worshipped by the Uz 1. More precisely, Zolan Zubar was worshipped by Varzor Kitor, or Trollmouth, who founded the tradition of Kitori which was formerly a vague alliance under Only Old One. So I hesitate to equate his worship with Uz. Certainly the context wrote "Kitori worshipped the same god as the uz", but at that time, the definition of Kitori might not be so firm. 2. Zorak Zoran was worshipped in Aksena Za just after the Dawn. The article (which is printed in the same book) is also available in the website. Settlements at the Dawn Aksena za is in Yolp Mountains, outside of the influence of Ezkankekko. Even if this article might be written by Greg before the article about the Varzor, it causes doubt. Book of Belintar 3. Book of Belintar was written by Belintar. In my humble opinion, 1)Book of Belintar might be influenced by God Learners.2)It is possible that Aldryami was influenced by Uz mythology　(Reverse of Peter's theory). So, If you let me write about my hypothesis: 1)Uz worshipped Zorak Zoran at dawn. 2)Varzor and "Kolati" at the dawn knew Zolan Zubar, but didn't know Zorak Zoran. 3)Varzor Zator or someone of Kitori (Successor of Kitor) began to equate Uz Zorak Zoran with Zolan Zubar 4)Zolan Zubar was forgotten by Kitori, but Kolati remembers him as a helper practice in the Third Age. So my suggestion about it is: Zolan Zubar was certainly worshipped by Kitori at the Dawn and Kolati, but it is safer that it is removed from the category of Uz Deities, until Greg would show more firm proof. Terra incognita Zorak Zoran, Zolan Zubar and others If Zorak Zoran was available to be worshipped during the second council period then why did Varsor Kitor bother with Zolan Zubar? It wasn't as though he was isolated, he had contact with Dagori Inkarth and the Shadowlands. When the text as you admit states the Kitori "worshipped the same gods as the uz", I don't see how the thesis of Zolan Zubar is an Kitori-only deity can be sustained. If Belintar was influenced by the God Learners then he would be using names like Zorak Zoran, Yelm and Arroin rather than Zazakzor, Halamalao and Eron? You make a good observation with Zorak Zoran in the Yolp Mountains. In my defense, I can only say that with that particular type of information, a few anachronisms and errors are bound to occur. Being deep in Peloria, the Uz there are more likely to be worshipping Deshkorgos or Derdromus than Zorak Zoran. For the time being the evidence is clear that Zolan Zubar was worshipped by the Uz and not just the Kitori. The situation is far murkier when it comes to how the change was implemented. Metcalph 05:27, September 20, 2010 (UTC) I understand your opinion, but I think if your statement is true, deep discussion should be happened to the fans as when Elmal suddenly appears among Yelmalions with King of Sartar. Or is it already discussed in somewhere?Terra incognita The aim of this wiki is not to represent fan consensus or debate or lack thereof but to present clearly what has been written about glorantha. I do not find arguments if X is true that debate should have occurred convincing because there are any number of reasons why debate may not have occurred, such as the majority of fans not being aware of what was written or its implications. Metcalph 06:44, September 20, 2010 (UTC) ::We have precedent for Uz dieties being worshipped under different names by humans, and I think by the Kitori in particular, with the Argan Argar also known as Argar Argan thing. That the same god is known under different names seems to me more likely than the sudden appearance of a very powerful, but previously unknown god.NickPheas 07:10, September 20, 2010 (UTC)